The Overflow Podcast // 037 // Jake Dempsey talks abundance, the good side of money, and tips to help you grow your business

13501962_10208692134493881_1078293994910299036_n_clipped_rev_1Jake Dempsey has a gift for taking complex ideas and making them simple. He’s got an app, a book, and speaks a lot about Young Living’s compensation plan. He codes it, he dreams about it… he lives it. Literally.

So, I asked him… I’m helping my wife with her business. What metrics should I look at- knowing that I can’t look at all 40-plus features that you have on the app?

By the way, I actually like  what Jake had to say about abundance even more than what he had to say about the app. Don’t get me wrong- the app info is incredible, and it’s one of the tools that will help you reach a place of abundance. But, the view he has of blessing and favor… is, well… refreshing… And, I really think part of his destiny is not just to create great tools for people to use to build their businesses, but also to teach- in a healthy way- what money does and the potential it really has!

Here’s the run down Jake gave me- and gives you in the attached podcast episode:

1. PV per member. This number shows the average “ticket sale” in your downline. This metric is nice, because you’ll see that just a few tweaks- like promoting a certain product throughout your entire team, can have a dramatic effect. Think about what might happen if just 10% of your team added a $25 product to their order… simply because of a promo you got behind!?

2. Percent of enrollers. Obviously, your team will grow faster if you have more people actively sharing the products with others. This metric shows you how well duplication is happening throughout your organization. The best teams train others to do exactly what the team leaders do… and they do this by 1) having a simple system that 2) anyone can do.

3.  A few growth metrics. Jake mentioned a few numbers I should evaluate.

  • Percent of overall growth. This shows you if your team is actually growing. If you’ve been around more than a year, you know that after 12 months, people who haven’t ordered actually fall of your downline- they go inactive. So, this metric shows if you’re moving forward or backwards.
  • Average order size. This goes back to point #1 Jake shared with me- to look at the PV per member.
  • Member percent Essential Rewards. The data shows that people on ER order about three times as much as people who aren’t. Jake insists you can grow your overall volume / revenue not only by adding new customers but also by getting those customers to spend a bit more. Obviously, people on ER spend a lot more!

Jake brings up an interesting stat here: 40% of people are “not there” after 1 year. That means that, somewhere, they attended a class (or saw an online post), bought an essential oil kit, got it in the mail… and never did anything with it.

(By the way, Cristy has an excellent video about Essential Rewards here:

Jake refers to the next three items on the list as an “opportunity list” to make a few phone calls and do some relationship building.

4. ER PV that’s greater than 170, but less than 190. Here, you have people who are making a large order, and are extremely close to receiving the free promo. If they move the order to 190 PV, they can get some amazing products (which vary from month to month), just by adding something to their order. Usually, it’s worth spending a few dollars to receive far more back in free stuff.

(Cristy has a great video on the monthly promos, as well:

5. Money missers. Remember, to be eligible for unilevel commissions in Young Living, you must hit minimal PV amounts.  This feature won’t tell you how much money people are missing (for privacy reasons), but it will tell you the following:

  • Either they have <50 PV order, but would earn at least $25 by placing an order, or
  • They don’t have 100 PV order (or greater), but would make at least $50 by placing an order.

6. PV greater than 50, but not on ER.  This feature shows you who is ordering enough to qualify for Essential Rewards (the minimal amount is 50 PV, recall). This is important because you have someone on your team placing an order that could be getting points towards free products simply by making that “regular” order an “Essential Rewards” order.


Show notes

10pack_largeJake’s book, Driven for Success-

Oily Tools-

Facebook group- go to > Groups > Oily Tools (request to be added to this closed group)

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What I learned from the healing evangelist that slapped the Holy Spirit into the stadium’s upper deck

The strangest thing happened on TBN one night (that’s a cable television station chock-full of televangelists, prayer cloths, and commercials with starving kids that you can save right now for less than the cost of a cup of coffee per day). OK, I exaggerated a bit on that, but you get the idea… yes, there is a station full of this stuff!

Here’s what happened: a well-known evangelist (you’d know him if I mentioned his name, described his hair, or detailed the kind of suit he was wearing) stood in the middle of a stadium, winding down his sermon. He was at the part where he’s giving people “words” and praying for healing.

Disclaimer: I believe in miracles and even teach a workshop about healing– and the fact that we see excesses and abuses doesn’t mean the pure reality of the Kingdom doesn’t exist.

So the evangelist notices that everyone he’s touching is coming from the main floor- and from the lower seats in the stadium. He looks to the upper deck and tells them they need a touch of the Holy Spirit, too…

Short clip- healing video- thumbnails.017Then- swaatttt. He bats the Holy Spirit into the upper deck, evidenced by people falling backwards, tumbling around, and exclaiming they’ve been touched by the presence of Heaven itself.

Now, I have a friend- a pastor- who used to travel with this evangelist. One day while we were shooting a video, I asked him point blank: “Did you ever see anything like that?”

Maybe I was expecting a tell-all; perhaps I was expecting a smirk. I was met with an amazing lesson on the absolutely grandness of God’s extravagant love…

“No,” Kent said. “I didn’t see that…” Then- “But I did see a bunch of incredible and, well… different… things…”

He paused. I could sense and honor in his demeanor even if he, like me, wondered about things like swatting the Holy Spirit into the upper deck of the stadium like you were taking batting practice with an invisible entity.

“I learned this through all of that… that the Holy Spirit is so desperate to express the affection of the Father that He will do anything you want Him to do to love His children…”

Kent explained that God will always “back you up.” He continued, “If you want to pray healing for that person, do it… If you want to give someone a word of hope or direction, the speak and He’ll fill your mouth…”

His words were freeing. You see, I’ve often wondered things like:

  • Does God want me to pray healing for this person?
  • Will He give me a word of encouragement- or a prayer- for that person?
  • What about this one… Does He want me to…?

And, you see, the answer is always, “Yes, Yes, Yes!”

Over the past few months (since we released the healing workshop), people regularly ask me to pray for someone or record a video message on their phone for a loved one. About 4 weeks into it, something inside me clicked: Now, many times, when people ask for prayer for a loved one, I’ll ask for their phone, record a prayer, and let them take it with them. That way they can watch it over and over (or listen), and the person we’re praying for can be “present” as well- rather than just hearing that someone prayed for them. Sometimes, I record a prayer. Sometimes, I just give someone direction as to what the Lord speaks to me in the moment for them…

It works every single time. It’s never back-fired.

Why? Because I’m seeing that this doesn’t depend on my and my skill set- anymore than your ability to love and bless others depends on your skill set. Yes, we get better with time and practice (and we should practice and continue learning, for sure). But, the outcome isn’t dependent on my ability (or yours).

The outcome is dependent on the already-resolved and already-proved reality that our Father desperately (to use Kent’s word) cherishes and adores His children- and that He willingly uses our hands and our voices to express Himself to them.

And that’s what I learned from the healing evangelist.



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The Overflow Podcast // 036 // Jay Carter talks fitness- and even crushing other goals- for normal guys


A few months ago, I ran into Jay Carter’s wife, Mary, at a conference in Washington, DC. She thanked me for what we taught Jay at the most recent Advance weekend, then told me he was making the bed every morning… things had radically changed. He was also running, beginning to take on some other projects around the house, and had dropped about 15 pounds.

Cristy was shocked: “Andy taught him to make the bed!”

I admitted I hadn’t taught him any such thing. Rather, Jay had take some tools he learned at the Advance, applied them in the way that suited him the best (which is exactly how the material at Advance works- everyone walks away with something tailor-made to them and their own goals / priorities).

580948_4340744678175_561658550_nMy time gets pretty thin at the Advance weekend, so I don’t get to talk to everyone as much as I’d like. Jay was one of those guys I wanted to meet- but it just hadn’t happened. So, I made a mental note to catch up with him at the next rendezvous- and then did.

My impressions were correct: he didn’t really need our help- we’d just helped inspire him. He was already a great guy- it’s just easier to be great when you’ve got others around you trying to live out their greatness, too.

Hence the old adage: “Show me your friends, and I’ll show you your future.”

And, Solomon’s own way of saying it: “He who walks with the wise will be wise… but the companion of fools suffers harm” (Proverbs 13:20).

Over time, I learned that Jay was doing some oddly incredible (yes, I meant to put both of those words together) fitness activities. A triathlon. A stair climb in full fire-fighter gear in honor of the 09/11 rescue workers who gave their lives to assist others…

So, I thought we needed to chat. How do regular guys- guys with real routines like making the bed and chasing kids and working a job- actually get in shape?

So, listen in… and look for… (Jay’s ideas, not mine):

  1. Consistency. Do something every single day. But, don’t just do “something,” have a plan of what you’re going to do.
  2. More is not better- better is better. This sounds odd. You’ve got to think long-term, though. You’re not going to be in radically better shape in a single day. You’re going to be in a “little bit” better shape. Continue that trend, though, and you’ll make it.
  3. Accountability. Training partners help us by calling out the greatness in us. Often, we think accountability only keeps us from doing things we shouldn’t do. The truth, though, is that accountability also encourages us to be everything we’re destined to be.
  4. Goals- have something to look forward to. Jay advocates starting with something small… and then having another “carrot” to go for… then another… So, you’re first goal might be a 5-K… then a 10-K or triathlon… or something a bit larger. Reach, now, for something that’s just out of reach… and continue reaching.
  5. Education / coach-ability.  You can learn something from everyone. Soak in all you can- even from places you might not expect it.
  6. Have fun. If your’e not enjoying it, do something  you will enjoy. This doesn’t mean it won’t be hard… often, it is the result you enjoy more than the process itself. But, it’s got to be something the brings you value, or it will be short-lived.
  7. Gear- get the right tools for the job. In fitness, having the right shoes, the right bike… the right shorts… it can make all the difference.

Incidentally, everything we discussed applies to every area of life. That is, Jay’s steps work whether you’re trying to crush a fitness goal… or a business goal… or even date your spouse. Work through the list; you’ll see what I mean.

Show notes

Jay’s weight loss story on Mary’s blog:

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Did we miss the point?

We tend to count and measure the things that matter the most. It’s why we count our money and balance the checkbook at the end of the month. It’s why we count our kids when we get in the car.

Sometime, really, ask me about the time that Cristy drove off and left one of our kids in the house… A few blocks down the street, she turns from the driver’s seat and asks the others, “Hey, where’s Judah!?”

Full disclosure: I made fun of her…

… until I did the exact same thing.

I left the school one day, got about a mile away. The car seemed about 15-20% quieter than normal. I scanned the rearview mirror while cruising down the street at an ever-decreasing speed, knowing something wasn’t quite the way it was supposed to be…

“Levi’s still at school!” one of the boys exclaimed.

They said it, right as I felt it. I had, indeed, one week fresh off chiding Cristy for vacating Judah, abandoned Levi at the Alabama Waldorf School.

Yeah, so we count our kids now- overtime we leave the house, the grocery store… even when we’re walking around the neighborhood, zig-zagging our way through the sidewalks.

Why? Because the kids matter…


Counting things that matter the most


Leads me to this- the topic of the video above. Sometimes, I wonder if the things we count in the church reveal what really matters the most to us. I worked in churches and faith-based nonprofits for over two decades. I still get the privilege to speak in churches today- sometimes on Sunday mornings at “big church,” sometimes when we hold healing workshops on their campuses.

I’ve noticed that churches (including myself in this convo, since I used to be employed by a few and did the exact same thing) tend to count two things: nickels and noses.

Why? Because those are the things that are important to us. Those are the things that we don’t want to “leave behind” like I left Levi and Cristy left Judah.

As a result, we send out the numbers of the butts in the seats and the bucks they gave to our mailing lists. We post them on the walls of our buildings. They dominate our discussions when we’re having lunch with other “church people” or when church leaders are “talking shop.”

We don’t ask about the transformational impact the community of faith is having on the geographical area around it; we ask how many people file in on Sunday mornings (or evenings, or even “online”) and sit down in rows. End of story.


Why does it matter?


Because Jesus never said, “Fill the building; fill the offering plate.”

No, He said things like:

  • People will know you by your love.
  • You will do greater works than I did (and He never filled a building, or an offering plate).
  • The Kingdom- and everything in it- is present in you…

Just thinking out loud…


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The Overflow Podcast // 035 // David Trombly kicks cancer, walks in health, brings healing to others


A week or so ago David Trombly performed a wedding. It was the logical outcome of walking in relationship  with hockey players for a few years… you’re there in the trenches, you get to be there at the high moments, too. Earlier that same week, he posted online that he’d been up in an aircraft- a fighter jet. The view from 10,000-plus feet was breathtaking, he said…

14519929_10209845088301085_1184739144029314458_nYou might get the idea that he lives on a silver cloud. But, dig into the story a bit, and you find out that the high points are just the tip of the iceberg. There’s a lot more under the surface.

Back in 2000, David was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer- there wasn’t one person who’d lived more than 5 years with it. Doctors advocated multiple scenarios involving removing a jawbone, aggressive chemotherapy, and a quality of life David didn’t want…

In his early 30s, married and with a few kids, they opted for a more natural way of handling things. Over the next few weeks, he was introduced to a young man who “ran away” (literally) to Tijuana and found healing…

Then he met a German doctor.

And he began using some Canadian medicine…

He found a raw nutritionist.

And he met a Swiss doctor.

After several months, David was cancer free. Has been for over 15 years, now. However, in his own words, he didn’t put cancer in the rear view mirror (behind him). Nor did he bury it (i.e., “Let’s don’t revisit that horrible time in our lives.”). Rather, he uses this story to empower others… to show them what’s available to them.

There’s power in story- in your story. In fact, your story often contains the SAME power as the original miracle you were brought through. Others NEED your story…



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If you take little action, you’ll experience a big miracle

I’ve looked throughout the Bible to try and find a “formula” for faith and healing. I’ve discovered that, well… you can’t find one.

A lot of people think that you’ve got to have complete faith in order for God to bless you- and that if you don’t then somehow He’s restrained until you “get your faith up.” Now, sure, belief makes things better. It gives you more stability… a foundation.

But there’s no “one-sized” fits all formula for faith in the Bible. I’ve looked. Over and over. It’s just not there…

Get this: Jesus healed people who had no faith– people who didn’t even know who He was! (For instance, the man He healed at the Pool of Bethesda, in John 5.)

faith box.001Jesus also healed people with “partial” faith, like the guy who exclaimed, “I believe- help my unbelief!” when his son was being tormented by a demon (Mark 9:24). And like the lepers who said, “If you’re willing…” (Matthew 8:2).

And He healed people when it wasn’t their faith at all that was exercised– but their friends’ faith (like the paralytic who was lowered through the roof while Jesus sat teaching. He, clearly, marveled at their faith- not his!) (Mark 2:1f.).

Sure, Jesus healed people with total, absolute faith. He did this when he proclaimed that He hadn’t seen as great a faith anywhere as He saw in the centurion who asked for his servant to be healed- another instance of someone’s faith healing someone else (Luke 7:1-9); or from the Syro-Phoenician woman who begged Him for a miracle on behalf of her daughter (even after initially being rebuffed); or from the woman with the hemorrhage who meandered her way through the crowd to touch them hem of his garment (“If only I can touch it… I’ll be well…”).

But there’s no formula for faith. There’s no box you can fit it into.


Two exceptions

Well, I do see two exceptions. For now, anyway.

First, we do see Jesus rebuke His disciples for their lack of faith. In other words, He doesn’t rebuke the people needing the miracle for their low faith quotient; He discusses the issue with the leaders who should have been dispensing the healing, the ones who should have been “serving up” the presence of the Kingdom (see the story in Mark 9:24f.).

faith box.002What does this mean? This means that the evangelist who told you you’re not healed because you don’t have enough faith… Well, Jesus wouldn’t rebuke you; Jesus would rebuke him/her instead. Got it?

Don’t worry about the faith issue- you just step forward and experience the best possible you…

Second, sometimes an action is needed. I’ll explain this by way of a few stories…

Naaman the leper comes to mind. A warrior of noted reputation, Elisha told him to dip himself into the Jordan River 7 times and he’d be well (2 Kings 5:10).

Naaman didn’t want to do it. He, in his own words, thought Elisha would just “wave his hands over him” and that he’d be well (2 Kings 5:11). He complained, talked about other places he could have bathed (waters in his homeland, which he thought were superior), and walked away full of rage.

One of his servants finally pinned him: “This is an easy thing to do. If he would have told you something difficult to do you would have done it…” Then- “Go dip in the water 7 times.”

Naaman did- and was well. Even though the healing was accessible, it didn’t manifest until he took action. 


The kind of healing that always requires an action

Now, I’ve taught you about two kinds of healing before- iaomai (instant, miraculous healing) and therapeuo (healing that happens over time by healthy choices, deliberate decisions).

Therapeuo is the kind of healing that always requires an action- because it’s a lifestyle choice! You must walk this one out! Therapeuo is, by its very nature, an action.

Luke recounts the story of a group of lepers Jesus healed. He says Jesus gave them His word that it was done… then sent them to the priests. Luke adds, “As they went, they were healed…” (see Luke 17:14). That is, their healing was available too- the entire time. But, like Naaman’s, it didn’t manifest until they took action.

Short clip- healing video- thumbnails.015I’ve recounted my story to you before. No, I didn’t have leprosy. I just had a bunch of stuff that a lot of people choose to tolerate. Things that aren’t our best. Things that slow us down. Things that keep us from walking our true destiny, doing all the incredible things we’re gifted and empowered to do.

I learned that, most of the time, when you take an action, the miracles “kick in.” Even if the faith-quotient is low, if you can start stepping in the direction of life and abundance, something amazing happens…



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The Overflow Podcast // 034 // Dustin Tudor discusses the importance of discovering who your kids really are

img_5464-2This past weekend, we completed the- get this!– sixth Advance. This is the event you learned about in episode 32, when Verick hosted a panel of past Advance attenders. Throughout the weekend, guys are directed towards focusing on their goals, as opposed to looking at an arbitrary goal that’s handed to them (i.e., hit a higher rank in business, for instance).

Some of the guys decide they want to get healthy.

Others decide it’s a marriage that needs redemption that’s on the top of their mind.

A few want to crush their finances- to get out of debt, to secure their future… and eliminate a ton of stress in the process.

Some go after their kids… hard

In fact, there’s a goal board- a place where guys actually write what they want to achieve- the “best case scenario” for them in whatever area they want to see results. Throughout the weekend, we go hard after it. And, together, we get results!

dustin-tudor-who-is-whoDustin Tudor is one of the guys who decided he wanted- he needed– to pursue his kids. After a previous Advance, he diligently sought their hearts AND he determined to know what the Lord had created each of them to be. In time, he saw that their calling, their identity, all fit together. They were planned (read: fore-ordained) to be together and complement one another.

We asked Dustin to teach a breakout session at Advance 6.0- and I got him on the phone as part of the prep for it. Together, we talked through the concepts he was developing…

Turns out, Dustin has a fighter, a lover, and a builder in his family. Here, he talks about why each is important to the other… and how they work together to create something of amazing value (see the graphic).

Your role isn’t to duplicate what Dustin has done- your job is to uncover the unique design on each of your kids- and then to shepherd them to greatness in that role, knowing that they play a unique part of a larger puzzle.



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overflow-business-title-slides-049Advance- Navigating from Where I Am To Where I’m Destined to Be- get the complete audio, the entire 180-page eBook, and three of the supplemental videos… all at a fraction of the original price! And, you can access it INSTANTLY! Go to:

Grace Basics– 8 lessons designed to show you your identity, and unlock the greatness within you. You’ll learn who you are, how radically you’re loved, and walk away empowered to live your destiny: 

God may be more tangible and real than any other relationship you have…

Faith is something that usually penetrates our minds only. We think of it as belief- as something that happens in the head. Perhaps that’s why we make theological fences, counting some people “in” and  other people “out” based on how well their beliefs (their logical framework) lines up with our own…

That’s kinda odd, isn’t it?

Don’t get me wrong- I’m all for truth. But when the Bible speaks about truth it calls us NOT into a relationship with facts and figures and data… not even to a relationship with a book. Rather, it calls us into relationship with a person.

Solomon was pretty clear that “without vision people perish” (Proverbs 29:18). Or, they “cast off restraint.” Or, to say it another way, they lose heart, motivation, and drive…

Short clip- healing video- thumbnails.014The word Solomon uses for vision here isn’t the word Hebrew people in his culture used for “ideas” (read: logic). Rather, he uses the word they used to denote the prophetic… that God is speaking to us constantly.  Solomon says, in effect, that hearing the voice of God is the thing that drives us, that empowers us, that fuels us…

So much for facts and figures only- we need more. 

In keeping with this, people who sought God in Solomon’s day would have sought- and experienced- the Lord with their entire person. Sure, they encountered Him with their minds- they routinely thought about Him and mediated on His truths…

But as they walked into the Temple, they encountered Him in other ways, too- with the entire person, in the same way that we encounter other relationships with everything that we are. In fact, you might say that God was MORE tangible than other relationships…

As they entered the Temple, they would smell the frankincense and the oils meandering through the air…

They would see a lavish display of artistic beauty. In fact, the Scripture says God had gifted artists to create in the same way He’d gifted others to teach…

They would hear the sounds of the His truths reverberating the halls… and the echoes of singers and musicians who filled the atmosphere with their rich rhythms around the clock.

They touched the sacrifices. And the altar. And the laver. And the other items in the Temple…

And, of course, they tasted… many of the sacrifices were meant to be shared, to be eaten, in God’s presence…


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The healing talk:

How drugs work- and why shadow boxing with symptoms doesn’t bring real healing

We built a zip line in our backyard from some scrap wood we had after sodding the yard and re-arranding the stairs on our deck. And, for about a year, the kids never had an issues with it.

No falling. No bleeding. No screaming…

Until one day, that is, when Mini (that’s what we call Miriam, the youngest girl) hit a snag about 10 feet in the air, fell, and landed on our wrist.

At first, it seemed like nothing…

Mini- showing us her "name plate" off the living room wall.

Mini- showing us her “name plate” off the living room wall.

We took her inside, let her get a leisurely bath, and then gave her something to eat. It had already been a long day, and we figured she probably just needed a bit of TLC and some rest.

But her wrist began to swell and she was in pain.

So, Cristy gave her an OTC pain reliever and I drove her to the ER to get a quick X-ray and have things evaluated.


Well, it seems obvious, doesn’t it? We knew that the pain she felt and the swelling we saw were alerting us to a deeper issue, something we couldn’t see- a possible broken bone. In other words, the pain and the swelling were just symptoms, signal flares, to “shout” at us and get our attention.

I would have never dreamed of simply giving Mini an Advil, Tylenol, or other pill every few hours of every day for the rest of her life, all while ignoring the deeper issue.

... and displaying a "kid-friendly" but totally-toxic breakfast she found at the book store!

… and displaying a “kid-friendly” but totally-toxic breakfast she found at the book store!

You wouldn’t have, either.

However, people actually do this every single day!

How so?

Enter Big Pharma…

Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m super-glad we’ve got access to the best medicines and the best medical care. It’s an amazing gift.

However, drugs were originally designed to give temporary relief (like the pain reliever we gave Mini), so that the deeper issues could be addressed (the broken bone).

But, now we’ve created a situation in our culture where we’ve seemed to forget that the intent of the drugs was to give temporary relief while we seek permanent healing, right?

AShort clip- healing video- thumbnails.013nd how does this effect healing? Well, you can’t really heal a symptom, can you? That’s kind of like shadow boxing with the Devil rather than just knocking him out!

Want to explore this more with me? Take a look at this short video from The Healing Workshop where I talk through it.

After you do, I’d love to know what you think.


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The Overflow Podcast // 032 // Verick Burchfield hosts a manly chat about the Advance

advance-title-slide-001In this episode of The Overflow Podcast, Verick Burchfield leads a panel of guys- all joining him via Zoom- to discuss the upcoming Men’s Advance in Atlanta, GA. What’s an Advance? Well, it’s a weekend retreat (we prefer to call it “Advance,” though, since it’s about moving forward instead of shirking back and retreating, OK?!)… a weekend ADVANCE… that’s…

1/3 life

1/3 faith

1/3 business and everything else

The Advance weekend(s) began about two years ago, when a group of guys decided to create a “do-over” of some important events that happened on a business retreat. It seemed to them that getting a few guys in the same room- guys who would be transparent and real, yet push each other forward- was a major need. So, a date was penciled into the calendar, and plans were created to converge in Memphis, TN.

advance-bus-logo-02That group of 20 became 40-ish a few months later… in Birmingham, Alabama.

Then 40 became 80 or more in Kansas City for Advance 3.0.

Those 80 became 115 in San Diego last Fall…

Then 150-ish in Dallas in late February 2016…

With each Advance, the team has gotten tighter- and the influence has grown. More people have been invited into the circle. More lives have been changed.

In this conversation, you’ll learn…

* The vision of the Advance

* Who should go

* Some of the takeaways from guys who initially were skeptical about what they were walking into.

Listen on!



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overflow-business-title-slides-049The Advance website:

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